Curse

LightningHell · Feb 11, 2006, 09:25 AM // 09:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Avarre

I had a long post taking each paragraph of yours into account Sinjin, but board database error ate it.

I'll try to take up the job, Avarre, however inexperienced I am :P

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sinjin

This isn't regarding the value of other professions in GW. Simply, if people have managed to beat the entire game w/o having a single mesmer for any mission, then clearly mesmers aren't as much a necessity as say monks. To the above poster: you can argue over the trivial semantics of saying "ohhh, even monks aren't needed" all you want - you'll just make yourself look silly.

Note, there are some professions that would be neglected if you make these comments - Elementalists aren't really needed, as you can just about replace them with a Necromancer or Ranger; same for the other two classes. Of course, it's hard to replace a Warder with a Curses necromancer, but then, is a Warder essential to play the game? No.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sinjin

But to get to the real point: if players can beat any given mission/quest without having a mesmer, then are mesmers really such important additions to a party? I don't think they are.

Neither is an Elementalist, for that matter. Simply, if every class were essential in every group, then I doubt there would be so much diversity around. Plus, it's impossible to make it like that. You just need to live AND deal damage at the same time, then you're ready to go. (I might get hit for this comment

)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sinjin

Mesmers can add a lot of utility and can make the mission easier to beat (not to mention efficiently locking down bosses), but they usually aren't the factors that will determine success/failure - and having a mesmer in the party is not critical to being successful.

Clearly you haven't seen the Mesmer Power-Blocking that Monk boss in time for that Necromancer and Elementalist to kill it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sinjin

Unfortunately, other professions, imo, are of more marginal value than mesmers. I love PvP mesmers, but in PvE they are undervalued - parties don't really need them - which was the reason why I ended up deleting my mesmer, even though I enjoyed playing it.

They are not undervalued. Any group in any RPG gaming world (making generalizations here) needs two things, the means to survive and the means to deal damage. So, if we said "they don't need this class cuz it's not essential", then there would be quite a few useless classes out there.

Quite a controversal topic, I see.

Sinjin · Feb 11, 2006, 10:26 AM // 10:26

Undervalued? Absolutely - when was the last time you saw this in all chat: "GFL 1 mesmer 7/8" from a group waiting 10 minutes to find a mesmer.

On the other hand, you'll see groups waiting for tanks, monks and eles.

Furthermore, specific PvE quests/missions/objectives demand a specific role for a specific primary profession (eg: SS necro in UW, MM in SF, Bonding monk etc). When was the last time a mesmer primary had a specific popular role to play? I can't think of a time when mesmers were thought of being "needed". I've never seen a group holding out for 10 minutes trying to find a mesmer. On the other hand, I've seen groups waiting patiently for 30 minutes just to grab another monk.

Avarre · Feb 11, 2006, 12:13 PM // 12:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sinjin

Undervalued? Absolutely - when was the last time you saw this in all chat: "GFL 1 mesmer 7/8" from a group waiting 10 minutes to find a mesmer.

Yesterday.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sinjin

Although it may be possible to beat the storyline missions with henchmen (which I can imagine would be difficult for the last 3 missions), it's nearly impossible to use henchmen for the titanquests like Last Day Dawns where lvl 4 henchmen get slaughtered by lvl 24 Titans. Additionally, even though you're using henchmen, you're still taking monks and warrior henchmen I assume - which are the professions, and this thread is dealing with the mesmer profession. (it's not a discussion if human players are needed).

No, 'tis you who is irrelevant. You posted the rhetoric that 'if you can do without something, it isn't needed.' What I did was show you that such rhetoric is completely useless, and you've just proved me right in it.

For the last time, a mesmer is not a focus class, like nuking. You have skills that are applied in multiple areas, and thus reduce the pressure on the entire group's effort. A mesmer can be, therefore, seen as a catalystic agent in a group's attack. The group can still work, but mesmers provide a clearer pathway to a faster victory.

And it still galls me that it's the people that deleted their mesmers because they couldn't find a group that state the uselessness of them in PvE. Tsk tsk, bitter?

Draracle · Feb 11, 2006, 05:04 PM // 17:04

Sinjin, we aren't here to insult you. Just to point out that you underestimate mesmers and clear don't see the effects of a good mesmer in a PvE group. First off,

Quote:

To the above poster: you can argue over the trivial semantics of saying "ohhh, even monks aren't needed" all you want - you'll just make yourself look silly.

Ohhh, even monks aren't needed -- I beat glint without a monk. I've seen glint beat with 6 henchies. Monk are leaned on heavily in this game, which makes them more important than other class and more important than they need to be. Check my personals <---- my main character is monk. Second, you can beat anymission without a class, that isn't the point. The point is that because people can't see the effect of the mesmers people don't like them. My mesmer pwns, I have a primary dmg and general chaos build and I would put my dmg up with the ellies and they aren't interupting, shutting down or weaking the other team while inflicting dmg. In the opening of a battle I usually can hand out 350 dmg in the first 3 seconds, before I even touch my anti-caster skills -- where my real dmg is at. More and more PvE parties are looking for mesmers, probably because they are starting to see the co-relation between a mesmer in the party and easily destroying what before were very hard mobs. Either way, Sinjin, you represent the last group of unbelievers. Invite me into your group sometime, maybe in THK, and I will make you a believer too.

Rayne Nightfyre · Feb 11, 2006, 06:50 PM // 18:50

The bottom line is that Mesmers are not useless in PvE, the learned players know this. So anyone trying to argue against that fact is in effect making themself look foolish. Avarre had a good point, the only ones saying they are useless in PvE are the ones that have deleted their own. Just because these personally do not see the effectiveness of Mesmers does not mean that Mesmers are ineffective. This argument is becoming rather redundant, so I feel that either this thread should be closed, or better, return to what this thread was originally posted for, the discussing of Mesmer builds by those who do enjoy playing them.

Draracle · Feb 11, 2006, 11:05 PM // 23:05

I agree, this thread is not to discuss the worth of mesmers (or flame them).

Sinjin · Feb 12, 2006, 02:53 AM // 02:53

I think you guys are misunderstanding me - I'd love to see mesmers become popular again in PvE - I had a lot of fun playing my mesmer. She ended up being deleted after I had the skills I wanted, and got frustrated trying to get into groups. I'm not bitter about it (why would I be?) cuz I got what I wanted (and I enjoy playing monk more).

And I'm not argueing that mesmers aren't beneficial to the the party - they can be a great asset and assist greatly: especially for bosses.

You're right this thread shouldn't be to discuss the worth of mesmers (or to flame them) - I won't say anything more regarding that.

For those that like to play mesmer, my favorite combo is the usual combo that people love: phantom pain + shatter delusions. It's great to see an enemies health drop to around 33% ish and then shatter hits and they suddenly die. I guess I'm the type of player that likes to see one hit high dmg attacks instead of gradual shutdown.

Backfire works wonders in PvE too, but I feel like that's too cheesy a hex, kinda like it exploits the AI to murder themselves to death.

Unlike you guys, I don't like to pump up FC past 8+1 or 9+1, cuz I didn't find it was necessary for PvE. If I remember correctly, the breakpoint for FC was 9+1 which would make a 2 second cast reduced to 1.42 seconds. That's why I used to have fc at 10. (but I may not remember correctly).

SnipiousMax · Feb 12, 2006, 03:04 AM // 03:04

Kinda changing the topic around a bit.

I'm finding more and more my aproach to PvP mesmerism is becoming more and more frustrating. As I experiment with builds, I'm finding more and more (in contrast to my earlier beliefs, so I apologize) that Mesmers need to be played as a "Jack of all Trades". It's important to have a build in mind, but I've found that as I focus on one thing, I end up facing groups where I don't need the thing I've brought (which was an arguement I disagreed with earlier in this thread or another....can't remember). So my newest frustration and problem is finding a happy balance between my primary focus (specific build), defensive/self heal skills, and secondary hexes (or skills). It's a bit of a challenge, but finding that balance is one of the things I enjoy most about the two classes I play most: Mesmer and Ranger. Generally speaking, as long as there fairly intellegent, Warrior's can bring just about any build to speak of and be successful in most all situations. Same could be said for the stereotypical elementalist (nuker/spiker). But once you get into the Utility Elem's and necros, and further along into Mesmers/Rangers, it becomes increasingly important to plan ahead. This is a bit less difficult in PvE where generally you know what your gonna face (unless mesmer is your first character), but I've enjoyed the challange of trying to balance my Mesmer to be "successful" in just about any situation. Uniqueness, potential, and pure enjoyment aside, mesmer's are fun for there adaptability.

Avarre · Feb 12, 2006, 03:15 AM // 03:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sinjin

Unlike you guys, I don't like to pump up FC past 8+1 or 9+1, cuz I didn't find it was necessary for PvE. If I remember correctly, the breakpoint for FC was 9+1 which would make a 2 second cast reduced to 1.42 seconds. That's why I used to have fc at 10. (but I may not remember correctly).

Where did we say we sent it higher? Usually I have 8+1 FC for PvE, sometimes abit less if running a minor skill on secondary class (WY or Gale or whatever). 9-10 is usually a good amount.

Rayne Nightfyre · Feb 12, 2006, 05:13 AM // 05:13

Same, the majority of the time I have 8+1 FC, so that way I'm able to have 15 Domination(11+3+1) and 12(11+1) Illusion. I love combining those!

Sinjin · Feb 12, 2006, 05:59 AM // 05:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Draracle

I don't use a Sup rune, but I do use the mask and a minor to give me 12 points in FC.

I prefer to keep FC around 8+1 or 9+1, unless it's a very specific build (phantom/shatter to be on spike, or dual attunements faster air).

Regarding SnipiousMax's PvP frustration: when I have high dom and illusion, I'll mix up the energy return skills: so I'll bring things like guilt, shame, ethereal burden.

Also, even without high inspiration the returns on drain enchantment and inspired hex are pretty good.

Also, for PvP, try to (if you have a free slot) bring distortion. We had a GvG today, where I solo'ed the flag runner as a fragility mes, and no monks were nearby. My distortion kept me alive after the warriors tried to smash my face.

Draracle · Feb 12, 2006, 04:47 PM // 16:47

12 pts give me just over 60% of normal time, 10% better than lvl 9. Also, my breaking points for my other skills allow me to leave 10 points in FC. Yes, the 3/4 second wait between casts affects the casting speed (making higher FC less and less effective) but I am concerned with speed of cast not rate of cast.
I am mainly Domination with some Inspiration. I am a glyph user, and punish my opponent's health bar for doing actions. I don't get to do much GvG, as my guild really isn't into it

. My build is basically designed to ballance anti-caster and anti-weapon and adapt to each battle as needed.

Sinjin · Feb 12, 2006, 11:00 PM // 23:00

Glyph of renewal is an excellent elite combined with a domination/inspiration mes - since you don't have to invest any points in it, and almost all those great dom hexes/spells are worthy of renewing.

LightningHell · Feb 13, 2006, 05:00 AM // 05:00

Glad we agree on things, Sinjin.

I haven't done much PvP at ALL, so...according to the little experience playing and the comparably huge amount of time thinking up builds, I find the Mesmer to be the class I have trouble making builds. After making the build, I find that some spells are just sooooo attractive it's nearly irresistable.

Sinjin · Feb 13, 2006, 07:14 AM // 07:14

I notice that the last couple posters all belong to guilds not on the ladder, but seem interested in PvPing as a mesmer. If you're interested in playing a PvP mesmer, let me know, and I'll see if I can get you into a halls group.

Look to have these skills available:

1. esurge
2. eburn
3. signet of weariness
4. diversion
5. mind wrack
6. signet of humility
7. mantra of inscriptions
8. shame
9. blackout
10. drain enchantment
11. guilt
12. distortion
13. inspired hex

if you have those 13 skills unlocked, I'll see if I get you a spot as an e-surge mesmer (if you're interested in playing a PvP mesmer). R3+ prefered, but if you're not ranked, that's fine too - I can help you learn the ropes.

Avarre · Feb 13, 2006, 07:57 AM // 07:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by rayne2550

Same, the majority of the time I have 8+1 FC, so that way I'm able to have 15 Domination(11+3+1) and 12(11+1) Illusion. I love combining those!

Same stats that I use

I don't PvP much... I'd be interested, but I prefer to spend most of my time chilling out. If anyone for some reason wants an r2 noob like me, then whatever

I have, of course, all mesmer skills, all monk and necro except WoP, several in the other classes, and enough skill points for anything anyone can dream up.

LightningHell · Feb 13, 2006, 10:47 AM // 10:47

Actually, I haven't PvPed at all...I just churn out builds...Would like, though. Living in HK and having a busy life (for a student) can cause problems

Got most of them unlocked, since my E/Mo was E/Me.

In PvE at least, I find Power Block + Arcane Conundrum a nasty combo for caster bosses, especially Monk ones

Avarre · Feb 13, 2006, 11:52 AM // 11:52

That'll teach Willa the Unpleasant to block the door of Komalie, mmyes...

Draracle · Feb 13, 2006, 12:11 PM // 12:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by SnipiousMax

Kinda changing the topic around a bit. . .

. . . Mesmers need to be played as a "Jack of all Trades".

My build uses glyph of renewal as a the key stone of my "freak of all trades" build. I find most mesmer skills to be extremely powerful and then compensated for their power with long cool down times. Glyph allows me to double up any skill depending on the situation. Through this build I am able to rapidly spread empathy through a group, double e-burn for large damage and -20e, double an interupt when I face a caster and basically adapt to every group I see. Now I do loose blinding ability, as all mesmer blinds are tied to elites

but I find my build is never short of options. As for pvp, you will probably have a more focused build as the team likely has a specific target and you must fill a niche -- though I have seen a Glyph build used in a GvG, but focused more on anti-caster.

Avarre · Feb 13, 2006, 12:17 PM // 12:17

Glyphed diversion is pretty popular in PvP... I prefer echo weariness or surge for energy burning builds though.